Bachmann is ...

[Butters 0]

Article

Quote

Bachmann criticized Perry, the Texas governor, for signing an order requiring middle-school girls in his state to get vaccinated against the human papillomavirus, known as HPV. But in the following days, she linked the vaccine to mental retardation. Medical experts roundly disputed the claim, calling it irresponsible and dangerous.
...
In post-debate TV interviews, Bachmann said that a tearful woman approached her to attribute her daughter's mental retardation to the HPV vaccine called Gardasil.

Linking a vaccine to mental retardation because a woman approached you and attributed her daughter's mental retardation to the vaccine is ... RETARDED.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Butters 0]

Also ...

Quote

"I am not a doctor. I am not a scientist. I'm not a physician," Bachmann told Fox News host Sean Hannity when asked if she personally believed a Gardasil injection could cause retardation.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

In post-debate TV interviews, Bachmann said that a tearful woman approached her to attribute her daughter's mental retardation to the HPV vaccine called Gardasil.

Linking a vaccine to mental retardation because a woman approached you and attributed her daughter's mental retardation to the vaccine is ... RETARDED.

absolutely - so you are calling the 'tearful woman' here retarded

as for Bachman, she appeared to just pass the quote along, not draw a conclusion. as for her implication.......well, that's retarded

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

Quote

absolutely - so you are calling the 'tearful woman' here retarded

as for Bachman, she appeared to just pass the quote along, not draw a conclusion. as for her implication.......well, that's retarded

If you want to be the President of the United States of America then don't pass this stuff along. Of course she didn't make a conclusion, she's a politician, she made a statement and after determining it was the wrong statement she made a second statement to try to correct the first statement.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[fossg 0]

Bat shit crazy...

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

If you want to be the President of the United States of America then don't pass this stuff along. Of course she didn't make a conclusion, she's a politician, she made a statement and after determining it was the wrong statement she made a second statement to try to correct the first statement.

But it's the SOP for all the politicians - how many times has Obama or GWB talk about that old person they had a conversation with and the issues and troubles she had? How many times did Al Gore make up the very same type of conversations?

the point is to pretend you are communicating and sensitive

should we blame Bachman for just being stupid in her example? (the answer is yes, thankfully we see her for her nutbag social positions before the primaries)

she should have stuck with fiscal conservatism - it seems most Reps fail when they decide 'their' social views should be out front. Now we know how nuts she is.

of course, that's also when the Dems reveal their craziness too


we need one 'social' position - "none of my business, but don't expect me to pay for it"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

I've reached a point where I doubt that the tearful mother is real. Bring in the facts and leave the emotions at the door ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[jakee 1,500]

Quote

Quote

In post-debate TV interviews, Bachmann said that a tearful woman approached her to attribute her daughter's mental retardation to the HPV vaccine called Gardasil.

Linking a vaccine to mental retardation because a woman approached you and attributed her daughter's mental retardation to the vaccine is ... RETARDED.

absolutely - so you are calling the 'tearful woman' here retarded

as for Bachman, she appeared to just pass the quote along, not draw a conclusion.

Bullshit.

"The problem is, it comes with some very serious consequences. There's a woman who came up crying to me after the debate tonight saying that her daughter was given that vaccine. She told me her daughter suffered mental retardation as a result of that vaccine. There are very dangerous consequences. It's not good enough to have a mulligan or a do-over, not when you have little childrens' lives at risk."

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

I've reached a point where I doubt that the tearful mother is real.

Yeah? You didn't grow up my my mom.

[Butters 0]

Quote

"It's not good enough to have a mulligan or a do-over, not when you have little childrens' lives at risk."

When doubt, whip the children out ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

as for Bachman, she appeared to just pass the quote along, not draw a conclusion. as for her implication.......well, that's retarded

Bullshit.

do you Dowd very much? tactical quote trimming is disingenuous at best -

the rest of the quote (you skipped, I replaced it in italics)

it's ironic that you just did something equivalent to what Bachmann did -



Now follow closely: it's a standard tactic on all these issues.

She says directly: "there's dangerous consequences"
She then implies: here's an anecdote someone ELSE told me (in this case mental retardation)

she then expects you to draw the conclusion without saying it directly - the hoped for inference being "vaccine causes mental retardation" - but she doesn't directly say THAT, just that someone else told her

then she repeats: "there's dangerous consequences"


it's slimy, we see it everywhere, I find it dispicable. it's not specific to any party or any specific social position - they all do it

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,500]

Quote

the rest of the quote (you skipped, I replaced it in italics) is where I noted she used it to imply a position

Ok, so you think she was implying a position - that's still bullshit.

She uncritically accepted the story from her supposed supporter and she made a flat out statement of fact concerning the safety of the vaccine.

Quote

the rest of what you posted is just her trying to imply something false and emotionally charged without actually having to directly come out and say it

"There are very dangerous consequences." How on earth is that not directly saying something?

Quote

it's ironic that you just did something equivalent to what Bachmann did - except she didn't purposely turn the quote to mean exactly the opposite

Twist all you want dude, you're still wrong.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Twist all you want dude, you're still wrong.

don't be an ass - since we're agreeing that her message is stupid, then you're wrong too -

I'm talking tactics. reread my edit

her implication is intentional

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

Twist all you want dude, you're still wrong.

don't be an ass - since we're agreeing that her message is stupid, then you're wrong too -

I'm talking tactics. reread my edit

her implication is intentional

it appears that you're defending her, just because other politicians used anecdoctal stories too. But when Obama talked about an uninsured person, or McCain (or was it Palin) had Joe the (unlicensed) plumber talking about business regulation costs, these are real issues. Being uninsured is bad for your health. Small businesses struggle to meet regulation while doing the harder job of building a business.

But implying that getting vaccines will make your kid retarded for political gain is effectively murder. Just under 4000 women a year die in the US from it - this vaccine is effectively against the HPV strains that cause 70% of the cancers. We just finally established that the study linking vaccines and autism was outright fraud, but the damage is still done. Lots of people, esp the ones that 'aren't doctors or scientists,' are keeping their children away and hoping the herd will protect them.

The cost and long term effectiveness of Gardasil are fair topics, but not as sound bitie as lying about it the way Bachmann does. Every week she makes GW look like a fucking genius in comparison.

[billvon 2,998]

>how many times has Obama or GWB talk about that old person they had a
>conversation with and the issues and troubles she had?

Quite often.

However, there's a difference between someone relating a story to support their particular political stance (common) and someone relating a story that leads directly to a public health problem. It's akin to a politician relating a story they heard that condoms cause AIDS, and sex with a virgin can cure it. That's not just a politician trying to support their politics - that's actively trying to harm people, and a claim of "oh, that's just something I heard someone say" is not a defense. Andrew Wakefield, the doctor who originally made the claim to profit from an ongoing lawsuit, has been charged with over a dozen counts of criminal misconduct - so there can be legal penalties for such claims.

=========
The Autism Vaccine Hoax
A tragic scare campaign is exposed as 'fraud.'

Twelve years late, the media and medical community may finally be digging a grave for one of the more damaging medical scares in history. We're speaking of the vaccines-cause-autism panic, the burial of which cannot come too soon.

The British Medical Journal this week published an article and editorial explaining that the 1998 study that provoked the vaccine scare was an "elaborate fraud." That study, published in the (once) respected journal "The Lancet," was by British doctor Andrew Wakefield and other researchers, who claimed that the widely used measles, mumps and rubella vaccine was linked to autism. Around the same time, U.S. parents and opportunistic lawyers latched on to a related theory that vaccination shots containing a mercury compound called thimerosal caused autism.

Despite broad evidence even in the 1990s that these claims were unfounded, the medical community was slow to push back. Nervous public-health groups inspired a panic by rushing to get thimerosal out of vaccines. The Lancet stuck by its article, the media sensationalized the story, and Congress joined the cause celebre. Maine Senators Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins went so far as to kill a vaccine liability provision so that parents could bring thimerosal suits. Indiana Republican Dan Burton was especially irresponsible in raising public fears.

By 2004, Britain's immunization rates had dropped to a low of 80%; the rates have recovered only slightly. The Centers for Disease Control says that in the U.S. 40% of parents have delayed or declined at least one of their children's shots. This has led to the needless re-emergence of once-conquered diseases.

Measles is now endemic in England and Wales. California recently suffered a whooping cough outbreak that sickened 7,800 people and killed 10 babies. As Paul Offit, the chief of infectious diseases at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and one of the few who stood up against the autism scare, writes in his new book "Deadly Choices," the victims of this "war on science" are children.

Researchers have all the while continued to churn out studies disproving the vaccine-autism link. Vaccine courts have struck down thimerosal claims. Yet it is only recently that professional journals and media have rediscovered a responsibility gene.

It took the Lancet until last year to offer a full retraction of the 1998 study, and that came only after Britain's medical regulator had ruled that Mr. Wakefield had acted "dishonestly and irresponsibly." The British Medical Journal's article is the first in-depth look at Mr. Wakefield's abuses. By journalist Brian Deer—who has investigated Mr. Wakefield for years—the article reports that the doctor grossly misrepresented the cases of 12 children to support his theory, and that he worked with plaintiffs attorneys to exploit the panic for financial gain.
=================================

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Twist all you want dude, you're still wrong.

don't be an ass - since we're agreeing that her message is stupid, then you're wrong too -

I'm talking tactics. reread my edit

her implication is intentional

it appears that you're defending her,

absolutely NOT. Did you even read what I wrote? If anything, i have a worse outlook on her than the rest of you - I accusing her of intentially trying to get people to infer a falsehood - but leaving herself open to own it or deny it depending on how it plays with the masses.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>how many times has Obama or GWB talk about that old person they had a
>conversation with and the issues and troubles she had?

Quite often.

"global warming is a terrible thing, we should stop burning oil"
"I was visiting an old folks home the other day and all the seniors agreed that weather is getting more and more violent compared to when they were younger"
"yup, global warming is a terrible thing"

"we need a stimulus, again"
"people are starving"
"we need a stimulus, again"

"defense is underfunded"
"muslims hate us"
"defense is underfunded"



pick any wacked out position and politicians play the same bait and switch all the time - they don't care what the topic is, they only care if they can tweak the polls a little bit more in their direction - by letting the populace fill in the blanks with whatever they want to believe.


Short answer - I hate the tactic. I don't care about the extent of the sin, that's a different thing. Spinning against vaccine might be a relatively worse use of it, but that's not my point.

So you might be fine and dandy with the tactic if it pushes one agenda - I think it's despicable when it's used for any agenda - big or small - high impact or not.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

it appears that you're defending her,

absolutely NOT. Did you even read what I wrote? If anything, i have a worse outlook on her than the rest of you - I accusing her of intentially trying to get people to infer a falsehood - but leaving herself open to own it or deny it depending on how it plays with the masses.

"do you Dowd very much? tactical quote trimming is disingenuous at best -"

[billvon 2,998]

>pick any wacked out position and politicians play the same bait and switch
>all the time -

I agree, and it's sad that political discourse has fallen to that level. But getting angry at it makes about as much sense as getting angry at TV ads that claim their laundry detergent gets clothes cleaner and fresher smelling than the leading detergent. It's what advertisers (and politicians) do - sell their product.

>So you might be fine and dandy with the tactic . . .

And you might be fine and dandy with politicians getting whole populations sick . . .

[masterblaster72 0]

Quote

>how many times has Obama or GWB talk about that old person they had a
>conversation with and the issues and troubles she had?

Quite often.

However, there's a difference between someone relating a story to support their particular political stance (common) and someone relating a story that leads directly to a public health problem. It's akin to a politician relating a story they heard that condoms cause AIDS, and sex with a virgin can cure it. That's not just a politician trying to support their politics - that's actively trying to harm people, and a claim of "oh, that's just something I heard someone say" is not a defense. Andrew Wakefield, the doctor who originally made the claim to profit from an ongoing lawsuit, has been charged with over a dozen counts of criminal misconduct - so there can be legal penalties for such claims.

=========
The Autism Vaccine Hoax
A tragic scare campaign is exposed as 'fraud.'

Twelve years late, the media and medical community may finally be digging a grave for one of the more damaging medical scares in history. We're speaking of the vaccines-cause-autism panic, the burial of which cannot come too soon.

The British Medical Journal this week published an article and editorial explaining that the 1998 study that provoked the vaccine scare was an "elaborate fraud." That study, published in the (once) respected journal "The Lancet," was by British doctor Andrew Wakefield and other researchers, who claimed that the widely used measles, mumps and rubella vaccine was linked to autism. Around the same time, U.S. parents and opportunistic lawyers latched on to a related theory that vaccination shots containing a mercury compound called thimerosal caused autism.

Despite broad evidence even in the 1990s that these claims were unfounded, the medical community was slow to push back. Nervous public-health groups inspired a panic by rushing to get thimerosal out of vaccines. The Lancet stuck by its article, the media sensationalized the story, and Congress joined the cause celebre. Maine Senators Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins went so far as to kill a vaccine liability provision so that parents could bring thimerosal suits. Indiana Republican Dan Burton was especially irresponsible in raising public fears.

By 2004, Britain's immunization rates had dropped to a low of 80%; the rates have recovered only slightly. The Centers for Disease Control says that in the U.S. 40% of parents have delayed or declined at least one of their children's shots. This has led to the needless re-emergence of once-conquered diseases.

Measles is now endemic in England and Wales. California recently suffered a whooping cough outbreak that sickened 7,800 people and killed 10 babies. As Paul Offit, the chief of infectious diseases at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and one of the few who stood up against the autism scare, writes in his new book "Deadly Choices," the victims of this "war on science" are children.

Researchers have all the while continued to churn out studies disproving the vaccine-autism link. Vaccine courts have struck down thimerosal claims. Yet it is only recently that professional journals and media have rediscovered a responsibility gene.

It took the Lancet until last year to offer a full retraction of the 1998 study, and that came only after Britain's medical regulator had ruled that Mr. Wakefield had acted "dishonestly and irresponsibly." The British Medical Journal's article is the first in-depth look at Mr. Wakefield's abuses. By journalist Brian Deer—who has investigated Mr. Wakefield for years—the article reports that the doctor grossly misrepresented the cases of 12 children to support his theory, and that he worked with plaintiffs attorneys to exploit the panic for financial gain.
=================================

Bullshit

That editorial from WSJ (too cool to post a link, or at minimum URL text?), and many of the "conclusive studies"... brought to you by big pharma, the makers of the vaccines that include such "safe" ingredients as aluminum, formaldehyde, MSG, and thimerosal. Wonderful ingredients for infants.

I don't think that the dramatic increase of immunizations in the vaccine schedule from the late 80s to 2000 and the correlated increase in cases of autism is a coincidence. Think it's all a hoax? Tell that to the thousands of parents who have seen a drastic change in their children's behavior *immediately* following vaccinations.

ETA: Just because Dr. Wakefield is a proven liar doesn't mean that people should stop asking questions regarding the potentially damaging consequences of ever increasing vaccinations in infants.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[billvon 2,998]

>brought to you by big pharma, the makers of the vaccines that include such
>"safe" ingredients as aluminum, formaldehyde, MSG, and thimerosal. Wonderful
>ingredients for infants.

Right. Polio is so much better for them.

>I don't think that the dramatic increase of immunizations in the vaccine schedule from
>the late 80s to 2000 and the correlated increase in cases of autism is a coincidence.

There's also been an increase in terrorism during the same time. Is that a good argument for vaccinations = terrorism?

>Think it's all a hoax?

Nope. A "hoax" would mean an organized, widespread attempt to deceive. This was one guy who wanted a few hundred thousand pounds, and has since been exposed.

>Tell that to the thousands of parents who have seen a drastic change in their
>children's behavior *immediately* following vaccinations.

Oh, no question there. A lot of them scream their lungs out. (Then they tend to survive without contracting deadly diseases, which is pretty cool.)

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I don't think that the dramatic increase of immunizations in the vaccine schedule from the late 80s to 2000 and the correlated increase in cases of autism is a coincidence. Think it's all a hoax? Tell that to the thousands of parents who have seen a drastic change in their children's behavior *immediately* following vaccinations.

Aside from one fradulent study where the doctor was profiting from the finding, no one else can find a link between autism and immunizations. They can't all be in the pocket of big pharma. You can't rely solely on the observations of emotional parents.

[jclalor 12]

I would think the child of a Bachmann supporter, having some type of retarded mental growth is completely plausible.

[masterblaster72 0]

Quote

Quote

I don't think that the dramatic increase of immunizations in the vaccine schedule from the late 80s to 2000 and the correlated increase in cases of autism is a coincidence. Think it's all a hoax? Tell that to the thousands of parents who have seen a drastic change in their children's behavior *immediately* following vaccinations.

Aside from one fradulent study where the doctor was profiting from the finding, no one else can find a link between autism and immunizations. They can't all be in the pocket of big pharma. You can't rely solely on the observations of emotional parents.

The CDC disagrees with you. (I take it that neither you nor Bill read this previous link).

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[jclalor 12]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

I don't think that the dramatic increase of immunizations in the vaccine schedule from the late 80s to 2000 and the correlated increase in cases of autism is a coincidence. Think it's all a hoax? Tell that to the thousands of parents who have seen a drastic change in their children's behavior *immediately* following vaccinations.

Aside from one fradulent study where the doctor was profiting from the finding, no one else can find a link between autism and immunizations. They can't all be in the pocket of big pharma. You can't rely solely on the observations of emotional parents.

The CDC disagrees with you. (I take it that neither you nor Bill read this previous link).

Perhaps you should look at the CDC's own site.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

Funny how they removed the mercury from vaccines and what was the result? autism rates soared. (well at least what constituted a diagnostic of autism did)

Just in California last year, several babies died of whooping cough. These babies had been vaccinated, but because others did not vaccinate, their babies died.

Have a look:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8yUSV4oqoU&feature=related

All the anti-vaccine nuts can go fuck themselves.